Internet Goosing the Antithesis

Friday, June 30, 2006

God: "Leave me out of it!" / Hellbound Alleee on Christianity

The Weekly World News reports that God has had enough with prayer at sports events:

"The Supreme Being told us he regrets that He can no longer devote time to deciding which team is worthy of winning a sporting contest," said Jeremiah Gottlieb, a spokesman for Unified Voice, an organization that claims to get messages directly from God.

Gottlieb said the Almighty entrusted him with this message after a recent highschool football game between Erasmus High and Dan Quayle High.
"Both teams prayed to Him before the game, which is not unusual. But God said, 'There are great kids on both teams. How am I supposed to pick a favorite?'
"God also said He has nothing to do with who wins an Emmy, a Tony or a Good Citizenship award from the local Rotary Club.

Hellbound Alleee has some incisive words for Christians in "The Questions Christians Can't, or Won't, Answer":

How can you enjoy your afterlife while millions suffer eternal torment in hell? Especially when some of them could be your friends, aquaintances, and family? When so many millions of them are simply regular, "good" people who were in the "wrong religion?" Little children, grandmas, people who have done wonderful things, millions of people who led wonderful lives, suffering in hell because they did not accept Jesus?

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At 6/30/2006 8:16 AM, Blogger Mike declaimed...

I grew up as an evangelical Christian; the issue of hell was one of the primary reasons I became an atheist.

A couple years back, a few of my RL friends and I created a now deserted forum where we could hash out some of these issues.

this is the thread about hell. I'm Rorshach. It's been a few years and I see some of the sloppy bits in my thinking, but I'm still disappointed that none of my Christian friends could answer my point.

At 6/30/2006 8:18 AM, Blogger Mike declaimed...

Sorry, here is the link.

At 6/30/2006 10:24 AM, Blogger streetapologist declaimed...

Once again Alleee has completely misconstrued Christianity. She is asserting that her worldview i.e. that people are inherently good and then arguing that God is unjust or not justified in sending these *regular* *good* people to hell. As Creator and sustainer of all human life God requires not justification whatsoever for what he Sovereignly decrees. Once again you (Alleee) are presupposing something that doesn't comport with the worldview that you espouse. You are asserting that God as judge would have to conform to human sensibilities in order to be considered just. This supposes that contigent human knowledge is somehow superior to God's knowledge. In fact your assertions are based solely on what you percieve to be true. Logically your entire line of reasoning is fallacious.

If you are going to argue against a tenet of Christianity at least argue against what Christianity actually teaches rather than setting up straw men arguments. You must logically argue against the doctrine of original sin prior to implying that God is unjust for punishing sinners.

Furthermore define "good" and provide the rational argumentation for calling anything good in the atheist worldview. For example, if life evolved how can an action of a human being that doesn't further the potential of survival for the human race be considered good?

Another fine representation of the Goose's inability to represent Christian beliefs accurately. Bravo! Are you sure your not a Christian in disguise attempting to make atheists look like complete morons? If so keep up the good work!

At 6/30/2006 10:36 AM, Blogger Mike declaimed...

If there's one piece of 20th century philosophy I'd like to go back in time and erase, it's Francis Shaeffer and his Dutch Calvinist cohorts. Strangle them in their cribs, or something.

At 6/30/2006 10:41 AM, Blogger streetapologist declaimed...


If you are implying that perhaphs my line of argumentation comes from Kuyper,Van Til you would be wrong. I follow Gordon Clark and therefore your comments on the Dutch Calvinists has no effect on my apologetic. Thanks for writing though!

At 6/30/2006 10:42 AM, Blogger streetapologist declaimed...

edit* perhaps

At 6/30/2006 11:09 AM, Blogger Francois Tremblay declaimed...

"As Creator and sustainer of all human life God requires not justification whatsoever for what he Sovereignly decrees."

Streetapologist, why are you here? Seriously. Do you expect any of us to believe this shit? You are not the friend of any individualist.

Go "apologize" for your divine dictators somewhere else, buddy.

At 6/30/2006 11:16 AM, Blogger streetapologist declaimed...


Is that your idea of a refutation? You and Alleee consistently set up these fallacious arguments and then when anyone takes you to task for your ignorance of (philosophy,Christianity and nearly every other subject ad infinitum) you tell them to go away or start calling names. Again well done!

At 6/30/2006 11:18 AM, Blogger streetapologist declaimed...



At 6/30/2006 11:49 AM, Blogger Francois Tremblay declaimed...

I do not refute the insane. I just tell them to go away. If you have anything reasonable to say, I will refute it.

At 6/30/2006 11:54 AM, Blogger Hellbound Alleee declaimed...

Wow, Street Apologist. Thanks for saying a whole lot of nothing, and then calling me a moron.

Do you have an argument? Or do you have an answer to my question? Here's a different one:

Justify it. I don't want this bullshit about God being moral because he is God. That's called "moral relativism." If it's good for one, then it's good for everyone. I'm not re-defining "good," you are, poindexter. Using your stupid biblical "definitions of "moral," you know, like me going to hell for not believing in your fantasy, then justify it.

That can't be too hard, can it? Apparently it is. You can't justify your god's decisions, so you say "it just is." Brilliant.

Tell me, Einstein, why shouldn't we torture people who voted for the losing presidential candidate? I'm not creating a strawman. I'm using your god's morality. If it's good, it's good. So justify it, and stop bullshitting like a flunking undergraduate.

At 6/30/2006 12:37 PM, Blogger Hellbound Alleee declaimed...

I posted a real answer to Street Apologist's post on my blog.

What a dark, sad, sickening worldview you have. I'm so glad I can recognize the world around me, instead of seeing imaginary evil beings floating around. What kind of person would that make me if I really believed that most everyone around me deserved unspeakable torture? I can't believe that it wouldn't drive me crazy. I'm seeing a little schizophrenia here. I'm sorry, Street Apologist. I shouldn't criticize you. You must have it pretty rough to have to see the world like this. Everyone can see what effect this belief has on people. I hope everyone sees this as a warning, and perhaps a moral lesson. Don't mess with the occult. It can mess up your mind, like it did Street Apologist's.

At 6/30/2006 2:59 PM, Blogger olly declaimed...

Well, I put this on 'thegooseiscooked' but might as well put it here as well:

I'll not speak for Alleee, but I will answer some of your questions from my own perspective:

"2) Assuming that unbelief is the only reason for God's punishment. This premise follows from her faulty understanding of Theology. Moral culpability presupposes Divine justice. What right does Alleee have to judge the actions of anyone, including God in her worldview?"

First off, you are putting false words into Alleee's mouth. She doesn't say that the ONLY reason that people go to hell is unbelief in God, she is simply attacking that reason specifically. And the second part of this question is not even connected to the first: what right does Alleee have to judge in her people in her worldview? She judges based on the moral system she has constructed for herself, just as Christian's judge based on the moral system in the Babble. I personally judge people based on my own system, and I have every right to do so.

"3) Assertions galore: She asserts her own happiness. A state of subjective happiness is hardly an argument for atheism. She says she *knows* that her unbelief has not caused suffering in this life. How does she know this? Is this knowledge based on perception and sensation? How does she know that she is not being deceived into believing that she is happy when in fact she is really miserable?"

First off, Happiness is a perfectly acceptable argument for Atheism: if Christianity makes me unhappy, and Atheism makes me happy, then I would choose Atheism. Secondly, she is basing her views on observable reality. While happiness in and of itself is subjective, i.e. I might think that happiness is a good cup of coffee, and someone else might think it's skydiving, it's subjectiveness is exactly what gives Alleee the ability to declare that she is happy: because happiness is a personal emotion, and only she can truly judge her own. "How does she know that she is not being deceived into believing that she is happy when in fact she is really miserable?" This is a non-sensical statement. Again, happiness is subjective, each individual makes their own claims about what happiness is... so if she believes she is happy, then she IS happy. There is no seperation between the two. People will argue that drugs, for example, give a 'false sense of happiness', but what the hell does that even mean? If I get high, and I feel happy and euphoric, then I AM happy and euphoric. I defy you to give me a concrete example of someone who feels happy, but IS miserable.


At 6/30/2006 3:47 PM, Blogger Francois Tremblay declaimed...

Please don't use the word "subjective". It is a very bad word. Use something more meaningful, like "arbitrary" or "personal".

At 6/30/2006 8:21 PM, Blogger streetapologist declaimed...


Are you going to address any of the fallacies present in your post or just shrug me off as someone with a sick worldview (yet another groundless assertion)? I would be happy to point you to a website or two that offers instruction in logic should you be interested. It is apparent that a refresher in formal and informal fallacies is in order.

At 6/30/2006 8:47 PM, Blogger olly declaimed...

My apologies Franc, arbitrary is indeed a better word.


At 7/06/2006 6:14 PM, Blogger Brucker declaimed...

streetapologist, as a Christian, I've got to say that while I do see your comment as more than complete babble as the atheists here claim it to be, I'm not quite seeing how it answers the question directly or indirectly.

Summing up the whole thing into two main questions, I see it basically, (1) why do people deserve to go to Hell, and (2) How do you really feel about that? The questioner specifically asks that these questions be separated, and regardless of "deserving" Hell, what's your opinion of it?

I think your comments may be worth making, but the points you make are tangential to the points the questions bring up, and therefore miss the mark.

BTW, my response is to be found here.



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