Franc's Challenge
Francois Tremblay Permalink
13 comments
Most Christians, and even some atheists, claim that Christianity, and religion in general, is valuable in that it provides necessary moral guidance. Fine - so where's the evidence ? I have been compiling statistics about morality and religion for a while, and have found that almost all studies prove the greater morality of secularity. I look around me and I see that the bravest of people, the most productive, the most intelligent, the most loving of freedom are secular. I read the Bible and see nothing but evil.
I challenge anyone to show me a verse in the Bible that is morally valid or justified.
I challenge anyone to show a moral area where secular people are proven to be inferior to Christians.
I challenge anyone to justify the extremes of moral corruption that pervade Christianity at its very core : in the doctrines of original sin and salvation, God's Sovereignty, and our need to follow God's subjective orders.
I challenge anyone to show any historical advance in social mores which is demanded by the Bible.
(and no, "love your neighbour" is not specific enough to stand-in for anything)
I challenge anyone to refute any of my entries on this blog.
What do you stand to win ? Well, I'll publish your answer on this blog, if you come anywhere close to fulfilling any of these challenges (since they cannot in fact be fulfilled, due to the total depravity of Christianity, I will be very generous).
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13 Comments:
any verse in the bible that's morally valid or justified? like, thou shalt not kill, or steal, or stuff like that?
as for a historical advance in social mores, off the top of my head i'd say the ketubah? not in the bible, so maybe it doesnt count for your little game, but it's in the talmud. the ketubah is the first ever prenuptial agreement. in a time when women had no rights, the ketubah guaranteed them for her.
as for extremes of moral corruption that pervade Christianity at its very core; I'm with you, buddy. there's truly something morally wrong with teaching people that they're born sinners.
"any verse in the bible that's morally valid or justified? like, thou shalt not kill, or steal, or stuff like that?"
Just one would be fine. Go ahead and quote us the verse and I'll post about it.
alright... let's try this one:
Exodus 23:5
"If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under its burden, thou shalt forbear to pass by him; thou shalt surely release it with him."
a simple little commandment about animal rights. you shouldn't let a personal dispute get in the way of helping a suffering animal, regardless of ownership.
Haaaaa ! Seriously, this is the best you can do ? All right.
So are you going to refute it or just laugh at it?
i thought it was a pretty good one. let's see you prove that animal rights is immoral.
I said I would refute any entry presented and I will. I was just laughing at how ridiculous this one was, that's all. If that's the best the Bible can do, let's just replace Jesus by an eco-terrorist group and be done with it.
i thought it'd be a nice one to start with, that you've probably never dealt with before. am i right?
maybe this one's too hard for you, sorry. want something easier?
Morality is an inherently human trait and has nothing to do with religious belief. Everyone is fully capable of following their own built-in moral compasses, without the unnecessary burden of warping their morality to suit that of an imagined supernatural father figure. It's a shame that so many people can't see that.
"i thought it'd be a nice one to start with, that you've probably never dealt with before. am i right?"
True, I have never seen that verse used as an argument.
"maybe this one's too hard for you, sorry. want something easier?"
Don't patronize me.
so let's hear it then. it's going to be here, or in a post? 'cause i dont think too many people are still reading comments
just to make things clearer, i'm not arguing with you here on the existence of god. true, i believe he exists, but i respect your right to believe he doesn't. that's not the issue here.
the thing is, you've been taking things a bit farther than most athiests even would. you're saying that not only was the bible written by man, but that it contains absolutely no moral values whatsoever. you claim to "read the Bible and see nothing but evil."
i think that there are definite moral lessons to be learnt in the bible, man-made or not. i'd even be willing to grant that fact in holy books of other religions. just because i'm jewish doesnt preclude me from recognizing the occasional positive message in the new testament or the koran (aside from 'kill the jews,' there must be some good in there, right?). just because you're an athiest shouldn't prevent you from recognizing good morals when you see them, and even acknowledging their contributions to the development of civilization.
still, i'd like to see you try to prove that the bible is void of all positive moral messages. i can't wait to read it.
It's going to be on a new entry. I'm giving it a while for other people to post their suggestions first.
Don't worry, this is in my bookmarks, I won't forget about it.
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