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Internet Goosing the Antithesis

Thursday, September 15, 2005

Too Good to be True...

Paul Manata at Press the Antithesis recently reinstated the comments capability on his blog amid criticism that he was trying to silence discussion and remove a fun and interactive part of his site.

I thought it was a very good thing. But I quickly realized that it was too good to be true...

The only places on the Internet where I have personally experienced censorship are 1. Christianforums.com, and 2. Manata's blog. I made a somewhat sarcastic post in his comments section, which I didn’t think was a big deal because it also did contain a relevant question. Manata really didn’t like it, he deleted it, and then he added a rule that discriminates against atheists, saying that sarcastic atheist posts will be deleted.

Manata apparently subscribes to censorship. Every reader here should note that neither I at my Kill The Afterlife blog, nor Franc or any of the writers here at this blog, ever practice censorship of comments by any member of any belief systems, regardless of the sarcastic content. The only thing I’ve ever deleted at my blog is spam, and that’s all I will ever delete. Its a good thing that some of us individualist thinking types will allow free speech and uninhibited discourse, regardless of our dislike of the content of comment posts. We even let Hashishan Prophet have his say for cryin out loud! Goose the Antithesis doesn't even have a 6 point list of rules for the comments, and Kill The Afterlife only has one rule: spam is deleted. Everything else stays.

Manata says that sin makes people stupid. Is censorship an intelligent Christian thing or a stupid authoritarian thing? Manata probably thinks that it is the former, strangely enough.

I must say that Manata's apologetic techniques are not very effective. He also seems to be okay with double standards in that he is fully aware that atheist bloggers like us allow all him and other Christians to post all kinds of ad hominem, sarcastic, and other not-so-nice things on our blogs without fear of deletion. But he does not wish to afford us the same consideration on his blog.

So now my feelings on Paul's reinstatement of comments is mixed. I’m glad he reinstated them, but I’m disappointed that he maintains a Gestapo-like stranglehold on their content, especially when he is censoring and pushing away the very people he is supposed to be trying to convert!

I have reached a few conclusions about this whole thing:

1. Manata is more interested in preaching to the choir than saving souls.

2. Manata does not believe in treating others the same way they treat him.

3. Manata wants to have extra restrictions for non-Christians.

4. Manata literally does not know how to show anyone the love of Christ.

5. Manata's Christianity is in question. He loves not his neighbor, and treats atheists worse than atheists treat him. Like a particular Bible character, Manata has admitted that atheists have hardened his heart. What happened to that Bible character whose heart was hardened by the way?

6. Manata is a pro-censorship, anti-American, anti-freedom communist. Like our dear leader Lord Bush said, "They hate America because they hate our freedom."

Manata, you have taken a step in the right direction, only to take a step back again. Embrace the free-speech ideas of your homeland! Join me, my American brother, in providing free expression of ideas for all of us, from blog to shining blog!

RAmen.

*UPDATE* Manata has made a 7th rule that casts a dark shadow over his blog: he will delete any and all comments mentioning the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Rather than attempt to refute the FSM, he simply wants to delete it to make it go away. Groundfighter76 is applauding Paul's censorship practices, which only goes to show that Christianity tends to make a person "hate freedom" and become more "anti-American."

With restrictions like these, it becomes almost pointless for an atheist to post anything at all, and therefore defeats the purpose of Paul's comments except for serving as a cheerleading device to pump up his obviously insecure ego. The fact that all the other Christians support his censorship forces me to believe that they also are not interested in saving souls or facilitating communication between the two worldviews. They simply want to have pow-wow's where they all stroke eachother and attempt to convince themselves that what they believe in is true and real.

Post a Comment


24 Comments:

At 9/15/2005 1:16 PM, Blogger Jeff Downs declaimed...

The comments you post here are exactly why I would keep comments closed, if I had a blog like Paul.

Atheists have their own blogs and they are going to comment on Paul or what others write no matter what(blog open or not).

 
At 9/15/2005 1:31 PM, Blogger Aaron Kinney declaimed...

Jeff, do you realize what you are proposing?

You are supporting mutual censorship, and therefore supporting the closing off of communication channels, and therefore are going directly against what the Bible tells you to do: to spread Christianity and fight for souls. In all seriousness, what would Jesus do? Would Jesus attempt to close or keep open direct communication channels?

Jeff, your position is anti-Christian, anti-free speech, and anti-interaction. It is directly against the concept of an interactive marketplace of ideas. It is deplorable.

Realize that the comment you just posted, and any other comments you post, will remain up and undisturbed.

The mere fact that you came over here to express your opinion also goes against the anti-interaction ideas that you support.

 
At 9/15/2005 1:41 PM, Blogger groundfighter76 declaimed...

Aaron,

You sure are being anti-American and Communist by coming down on Paul for exercising *his freedom* to do as he wishes with *his* blog (notice that it is not *yours*). Why don't you stop your crying, you Communist!

IT'S OBVIOUS THAT YOU HATE FREEDOM!

 
At 9/15/2005 3:04 PM, Blogger Jeff Downs declaimed...

I am open to communication Aaron. But, if you think, blasting each other back and forth is communication...you can have it.

I guess I'm coming from a personal experience, in that these blogs can take away from what God has called us to do on a daily basis, take care of our families and other responsibilities, which should take priority.

Aaron, you are twisting my words, which again, is why I will not continue this conversation. You obviously do not know much about Christianity to make these kind of statements. I'm not Jesus, if I were I'd being able to read your mind (since I'd be God) and show just exactly where you are suppressing the truth. You'd end up on your knees. But, that is another story.

My position is not anti-Christian, you are twisting my words...which is deplorable.

You stated The mere fact that you came over here to express your opinion also goes against the anti-interaction ideas that you support.

Which goes to show...you are twisting my words and ideas and certainly how I've lived my life thus far.

Thanks for your time.

Stop by my site some time.

 
At 9/15/2005 3:12 PM, Blogger Aaron Kinney declaimed...

Aaron,

You sure are being anti-American and Communist by coming down on Paul for exercising *his freedom* to do as he wishes with *his* blog (notice that it is not *yours*). Why don't you stop your crying, you Communist!

IT'S OBVIOUS THAT YOU HATE FREEDOM!


Nice try, but you take it out of context, and your missing the point. My appeals to Paul to keep his blog open are not anti-American. I am asking him to apply freedom-loving principles to the administration of his blog.

I support his right to do what he wants with *his* blog, so your argument against me is clearly wrong. You are accusing me of doing something I didnt do.

I am complaining to him because of the fact that he wants to censor his blog. Im trying to show him that what he *wants* to do with *his* blog is antithetical to the values of free speech and open uninhibited discourse.

For a guy who wants to be an apologetic, he sure isnt very good at it. How do you bring people to Christ using the tactics hes using?

For me to be anti-freedom, I would have to tell Paul that he doesnt have a right to do what he wants with his blog, which is entirely different than what Im asking him to do. Im trying to get him to be consistent with his application of principles from the way he votes to the way he administers his blog.

Why would Paul re-open comments after criticism from atheists, only to prevent atheists from effectively posting there?

Its obvious you dont even understand the principles involved. You attack me for doing something that I am not even doing.

 
At 9/15/2005 3:15 PM, Blogger Aaron Kinney declaimed...

Well Jeff since you said you dont want to continue conversing with me, then Im reluctant to even attempt a reply. But I will give it a shot.

My position is not anti-Christian, you are twisting my words...which is deplorable.

You stated... [my comments etc...]

Which goes to show...you are twisting my words and ideas and certainly how I've lived my life thus far.

You made the claim, but you didnt back it up. Please explain how I twisted your words, and please explain how you are actually in favor of uninhibited discourse at both Christian and atheist blogs?

Ill stop by your site, sure. Can I comment at it? If so, are there any rules I need to keep in mind?

Feel free to stop by my site too. Im sure youll love it! :) Its called Kill The Afterlife.

 
At 9/15/2005 3:16 PM, Blogger Aaron Kinney declaimed...

LOL my mistake. Your site is a resource site, not a blog. I like it though. You got lots of good resources, to be sure. Thanx for the heads up!

 
At 9/15/2005 3:32 PM, Blogger Jeff Downs declaimed...

You are twisting my words, because I do not believe in censorship, although, perhaps the word needs to be defined. As you said, I made it here and am posting, which proved that I'm open to dialog. I am currently on an Evangelical and Jehovah's Witnesses board. Although in the past three weeks I've limited my posting, because of more important duties (family, school, etc.).

Also, if you look at my teaching and ministry experience, I've held open seminars, conferences, etc. and done the hard work in promoting them, for the express purpose of engaging the culture.

Also, regarding comments sections in general. Depends on what kind of blog you have. If it is tool to teach people, comments might not be appropriate. Again, has nothing to do with not being open to correction or critique.

 
At 9/15/2005 3:32 PM, Blogger Jeff Downs declaimed...

You are twisting my words, because I do not believe in censorship, although, perhaps the word needs to be defined. As you said, I made it here and am posting, which proved that I'm open to dialog. I am currently on an Evangelical and Jehovah's Witnesses board. Although in the past three weeks I've limited my posting, because of more important duties (family, school, etc.).

Also, if you look at my teaching and ministry experience, I've held open seminars, conferences, etc. and done the hard work in promoting them, for the express purpose of engaging the culture.

Also, regarding comments sections in general. Depends on what kind of blog you have. If it is tool to teach people, comments might not be appropriate. Again, has nothing to do with not being open to correction or critique.

I'm off to school right now....

Thanks again for your time.

 
At 9/15/2005 3:51 PM, Blogger groundfighter76 declaimed...

Aaron said, "Its obvious you dont even understand the principles involved. You attack me for doing something that I am not even doing."

yes i do understand the principles involved. You are attacking Paul for employing his freedom (to not have 'freedom-loving principles' in whatever way you define that) as he wishes with his blog. Freedom arguments almost always cut both ways. As a matter of fact, your 'argument' (complaint) is eerily similar to that made by the Bush camp - you know, unless you support us and our war on terror then you are not 'freedom-loving', but of course they won't 'force' people to support them.

If you 'support' his right, then why write a blog entry complaining about his right? You obviously don't based upon your 'criticisms' and are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

 
At 9/15/2005 5:11 PM, Blogger Not Reformed declaimed...

I'd like to take credit for getting the clown-Prince, Paul Manata, to open up his comments section (however restricted) based on comments I made about him here.

I did call him a coward...and I know his issues with self-esteem and his "I'm a bad-ass bald man" ego couldn't handle being called out in such a way.

Truly, Paul is now thinking "Not Reformed's Thoughts."

GLORY TO FSM!!!

 
At 9/15/2005 5:35 PM, Blogger Paul Manata declaimed...

Aaron said:

"The only places on the Internet where I have personally experienced censorship are 1. Christianforums.com, and 2. Manata's blog."

As a matter of fact, Franc banned me on this blog, as you admitted. So, now what? Secondly, on hell bound Allee's site Franc and his wife did not ban me but they went into my posts and changed my words to things like: "I'd an F-ing idiot, I don't know what I'm talking about."

So, Aaron, you like apples? How 'bout deese apples?

Also, I can make any rules on *my* blog, can I not?

In response you say this:

"I am complaining to him because of the fact that he wants to censor his blog. Im trying to show him that what he *wants* to do with *his* blog is antithetical to the values of free speech and open uninhibited discourse."

Oh, so we should let people make bomb threats and shout fire in a crowded palce? So, my blog has a *purpose.* One thing I don't want on my blog are stupid comments and sarcastic remarkes ...*WITHOUT SUBSTANTIVE CONTENT.* Also, I don't want to post a blog on a particular heresy and have an atheist debate me about atheism! This is not orderly. So, you've clearly been refuted and embarrssed. Next time, keep your whinning to yourself.

 
At 9/15/2005 5:39 PM, Blogger Francois Tremblay declaimed...

it's funny to see how the cowards are stirred into macho bravado when their integrity is questioned. Being Christians, you'd think integrity would be the LAST thing on their minds ! Shade of secularism anyone ?

 
At 9/15/2005 5:56 PM, Blogger Aaron Kinney declaimed...

This is not orderly. So, you've clearly been refuted and embarrssed. Next time, keep your whinning to yourself.


No I havent you double standard censorship-loving hypocrite. You are embarrasing yourself by exposing your anti-communicative and anti-apologetic stance. You are only exposing your true intentions by your actions, which is to yap about what you want and have a bunch of Christians cheerlead for you.

Why the hell did you even bring comments back other than for a cheerleading team if you make such ridiculous rules against atheists posting there? Why are you claiming to be an apologetic? You dont act like one in any way whatsoever. Why are you even going to school for this shit?

Yes Franc banned you at one point. Did you forget the part where I openly defended you and worked to get you unbanned? I have been consistent on this issue the entire time. Thanx for returning the same respect and consideration that I have given you regarding your ability to post freely and uninhibitedly (is that a word?).

Your rules make me not want to post on your blog, which obviously makes you happy. You are quick to tell me not to post on your blog if I dont follow your discriminatory rules. Of course you can do whatever you want with your blog, but it only serves to embarass you, because it shows that you would much rather deter any atheists from posting on your blog.

You totally suck at your career choice Paul. Reading van Til and Bahnsen may make you know more about your religion, but it sure isnt helping you spread it. Us atheists are better at atheist apologetics than you are at Christian apologetics, for a foundational reason: we are by and large keeping uninhibited communication lines open, and the majority of us dont throw around arrogant ad hominem to the degree that you do. No wonder Christians are losing their faith across the Western world with people like you leading the Christian charge!

Im trying to help you get better at connecting with, and converting heathens and unbelievers. What is it exactly that you do in your religious pursuits that are actually AIMED at saving souls or showing atheists the truth of Jesus' divinity, Paul? How many atheists have you converted Paul? You probably dont care, but Ive deconverted three Christians in my life. What does that say about you and me and the tactics we use?

What are you doing to stop the current exodus of Christians who are leaving the faith? Do you even know that its happening?

 
At 9/15/2005 6:41 PM, Blogger theatheist declaimed...

From groundfigher76
"You sure are being anti-American and Communist by coming down on Paul for exercising *his freedom* to do as he wishes with *his* blog (notice that it is not *yours*). Why don't you stop your crying, you Communist!"
==================================
ROFLMAO....
Why is it that christians always use the "If your an atheist then you must be anti-American and/or Communist" line.

Why do christians ALWAYS confuse a political philosophy with a lack of belief in a god? groundfighter76 you and people like yourself that shoot off silly as comments really show your lack of intelligence.

ROFLMAO....

 
At 9/15/2005 7:38 PM, Blogger Paul Manata declaimed...

How did you refute my post Aaron? You write so much with nothing of substance. How do you do it?!

Anyway, here's more Kinney-esk embarrassing moments. You said:

"Yes Franc banned you at one point. Did you forget the part where I openly defended you and worked to get you unbanned? I have been consistent on this issue the entire time. Thanx for returning the same respect and consideration that I have given you regarding your ability to post freely and uninhibitedly (is that a word?)."


But, Aaron, what was the purpose of why I said that?

You wrote in your blog:

"The only places on the Internet where I have personally experienced censorship are 1. Christianforums.com, and 2. Manata's blog."


So, I must conclude that GTA is either a "Christian blog" or it's "Manata's blog." If not, then you've inserted smelly foot in mouth... again! What the heck does your romantic defending of me have to do with my point?

Airhead, why can't you ever stay on topic? Why do you waste everyone's time with your pontificating and paranoia/ Stop it. Take your meds.

 
At 9/15/2005 7:55 PM, Blogger groundfighter76 declaimed...

Theatheist *blundered* and said,

"From groundfigher76
"You sure are being anti-American and Communist by coming down on Paul for exercising *his freedom* to do as he wishes with *his* blog (notice that it is not *yours*). Why don't you stop your crying, you Communist!"
==================================
ROFLMAO....
Why is it that christians always use the "If your an atheist then you must be anti-American and/or Communist" line.

Why do christians ALWAYS confuse a political philosophy with a lack of belief in a god? groundfighter76 you and people like yourself that shoot off silly as comments really show your lack of intelligence.

ROFLMAO...."


LOL! Dude you obviously don't even know what the conversation was about! I NEVER SAID THAT IF YOU WERE AN ATHEIST YOU WERE ANTI-AMERICAN OR COMMUNIST?

DO THEY NOT TEACH READING COMPREHENSION WHERE YOU RESIDE?

This is probably the worst case of not reading things in context that I've seen yet (or actually not reading at all and then 'critiquing'). I'm inclined to think that "theatheist" must be joking!

You should probably keep your posts to yourself until you can read and get some context so as to avoid embarrassing yourself any further. Capice?

 
At 9/15/2005 8:57 PM, Blogger Paul Manata declaimed...

yeah, I noticed that also GF76!

It was almost worse than Aairhead's titanic blunder,,,

 
At 9/16/2005 8:35 AM, Blogger Paul Manata declaimed...

How did you refute my post Aaron? You write so much with nothing of substance. How do you do it?!

Anyway, here's more Kinney-esk embarrassing moments. You said:

"Yes Franc banned you at one point. Did you forget the part where I openly defended you and worked to get you unbanned? I have been consistent on this issue the entire time. Thanx for returning the same respect and consideration that I have given you regarding your ability to post freely and uninhibitedly (is that a word?)."


But, Aaron, what was the purpose of why I said that?

You wrote in your blog:

"The only places on the Internet where I have personally experienced censorship are 1. Christianforums.com, and 2. Manata's blog."


So, I must conclude that GTA is either a "Christian blog" or it's "Manata's blog." If not, then you've inserted smelly foot in mouth... again! What the heck does your romantic defending of me have to do with my point?

Airhead, why can't you ever stay on topic? Why do you waste everyone's time with your pontificating and paranoia/ Stop it. Take your meds.

7:38 PM

*BUMP*

 
At 9/16/2005 3:10 PM, Blogger Aaron Kinney declaimed...

LOL look at you, bumping a comment. Sheeeeit!

Paul, I forgot about Franc banning you for a brief period of time when I wrote the post. I offered a correction and posted it in your comments, which you deleted.

Since I have already acknowledged the error, and since I successfully ended the bried period of time when Goose censored, can we move on now?

Quit throwing red herrings around. You refuse to address anything I say and instead bitch about one little oversight, which I already acknolwedged and corrected. Youre beating a dead horse in an attempt to distract from the real issue here: your piss poor Christian behavior.

Airhead, oh yea, that must have taken some real thought. Did you get that from the Bible too? Or from Van Til? How old are you? My God! You act like a little teenage brat. You constantly embarrass yourself in front of everyone. Except of course for your little lap-dog lackey, GF76.

Whats with your inferiority complex Paul? A little bit of short-man syndrome perhaps? Maybe a preacher molested you as a child? I can play the insult game too, idiot.

Whats embarrasing you the most is the shit you are oblivious too, like the obviousness of your need to insult everyone to make yourself feel good. Its the only thing that you willingly, freely do (you sure dont evangelize!) because its the only way you can feel adequate: to bring others down. That is because, subconsciously, you feel that everyone else is better than you.

Maybe you should put down your Van Til books for a while and look through the DSM. Do you know what that even is? I think you'd learn alot about yourself there, Paul.

If you keep this bullshit up I just might change my mind and colaborate with Franc on setting up some Manata-ish comments rules for THIS blog, and that would fuck up your little fun-time quite a bit. Would you like a taste of your own medicine, Paul? You would be restricted to insulting atheists to make yourself feel adequate on your own blog, which only cheerleading Christians read anyway.

I wonder what would happen if your fellow churchgoers in your town knew about the type of shit you did in here? I wonder if they would approve of your deliberate attempts to drive people away from Jesus? Maybe I should send you pastor some emails and links showing your oh-so-Christian communication methods! I bet he would promote you to Grand High Wizard for your incredible verbal punishment of all us evil Satanists, wouldnt he?

Im sick of feeling like Im arguing with a 14 year old pimple faces self-hating teenager. Im sick of talking with the one Christian that actually pisses me off. Im sick of watching you take out your feelings of inadequacy on everyone who isnt a VanTilbot.

Read your own posts! Look at how bad you make Christians look! You are so oblivious to the damage you are doing to your own faith, its ridiculous.

 
At 9/16/2005 4:28 PM, Blogger groundfighter76 declaimed...

Aaron said, "You constantly embarrass yourself in front of everyone. Except of course for your little lap-dog lackey, GF76."

You are so cool, Aaron. One day I hope to half as cool as you are.

Anyway, when are going to decide to grow up and stop throwing your little hissy fits. I seriously don't understand what the big deal is with all your whining about Paul's blog. For two days now you have been going on and on with your whining...

Boo hoo, now act like a man and get over it...

 
At 9/16/2005 7:49 PM, Blogger Aaron Kinney declaimed...

GF76 said:

Anyway, when are going to decide to grow up and stop throwing your little hissy fits. I seriously don't understand what the big deal is with all your whining about Paul's blog. For two days now you have been going on and on with your whining...

Boo hoo, now act like a man and get over it...


Obviously you didnt read my "whining" posts.

I am not bitching about Pauls blog. Im bitching about Paul being totally uninterested in apologetics and only interested in insulting atheists. Im bitching about him trying to inject himself into the athiest/theist apologetic circle without actually wanting to spread his Christianity.

This is so lame. Manata, and to a lesser extent you, bitch and whine about atheists bitching and whining, and you make charges for us to grow up.

At the same time, it is obvious to us that you are bitching and whining and acting like children with your liberal use of insults. It finally drove me to the point where I wanted to insult you back, and I also bitched to you and Manata to grow up and be men as well.

Look at this situation from the outside. Isnt the silliness of this obvious when we bitch and whine and charge eachother to grow up?

Why is it that Manata and you are the only two Christians that, when I interact with them, it quickly degenerates into a mudslinging contest?

I communicate with many Christians on a daily basis both in real life and on the net. But with none of them do these kinds of hostilities and insult contests appear. I am perfectly capable of having respectful and rational conversations with many Christians and I do so daily. Ive never been so offended by any Christian before as I am when dealing with you two. Ive never been inspired to act like an asshole in return with any other Christians but you two.

Manata and yourself bring out the worst in me. You make me act in ways that are not myself; in ways that Im not comfortable acting. Strangely, this asshole behavior seems to be the only way you and Manata can act with anyone whose not a VanTilbot.

Its disgusting. Now why dont you take off and quit wasting all of our time unless youre interested in actual apologetics? You and Manata are the only two Christians that I can no longer respect as people due to your horrible behavior.

 
At 9/17/2005 2:08 AM, Blogger groundfighter76 declaimed...

Aaron,

Get control of yourself. You know that most of our convo's have been fairly civil.


You said, "Why is it that Manata and you are the only two Christians that, when I interact with them, it quickly degenerates into a mudslinging contest?"

Before anything negative was said, you commented, "Except of course for your *little lap-dog lackey*, GF76."


This is what got me started and why I called you out on your whining - I'm no 'little lap-dog lackey' and I don't appreciate being ridiculed in this manner. And why say this? Because I happen to agree with Paul on many issues? Whatever, aaron.

 
At 9/17/2005 2:09 AM, Blogger groundfighter76 declaimed...

Oh and unlike others on this board who critique without reading those whom they are critiquing (Aaron), I actually read your 'posts'.

 

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