Internet Goosing the Antithesis

Saturday, April 23, 2005

Their worldview's grave

While Paul and his fans hide their heads in shame, desperately trying to escape the gaze of the teacher asking them to provide an argument for their position, let us be reminded of the childish statements of presuppositionalists past...

These quotes come from Bahnsen Burner's blog, but I took the liberty of changing some of the comments.

“God must always remain mysterious to man.”
– Cornelius Van Til, The Defense of the Faith, p. 14.

(Nice to see Christian admitting their faith is irrational and without conceptual foundation)

“To begin with then I take what the Bible says about God and his relation to the universe as unquestionably true on its own authority.”
– Cornelius Van Til, The Defense of the Faith, p. 195.

(Circular reasoning anyone ? And they admire this guy)

“A person with a wish to be fulfilled is often on the road to belief.”
– John Frame, Apologetics to the Glory of God, p. 37.

(Sort of says it all, doesn’t it?)

“We know without knowing how we know.”
– John Frame, Presuppositional Apologetics: An Introduction (Part I)

(Finally one of them admits it!)

“Religious faith is something to die for.” – Peter Kreeft and Ronald K. Tacelli, Handbook of Christian Apologetics, p. 14.

(So say Muslim suicide bombers. In fact, they even put this belief into practice!)

"I just believe that we are very good about lying to ourselves, and only accepting, uh, or interpreting the evidence the way we would like to."
– Christian apologist Phil Fernandes in his debate with JJ Lowder.

(Even the mentally-challenged can have sparks of intelligence)

“In actuality, this autonomous man is dull, stubborn, boorish, obstinate and stupid.”
– Greg L. Bahnsen, Always Ready, p. 56.

(There’s nothing like that longsuffering Christian love!)

“Faith is the precondition of proper understanding.”
– Greg L. Bahnsen, Always Ready, p. 88.

(Which premise of TAG is this?)

“Empirical experience merely gives us an appearance of things; empirical experience cannot in itself correct illusions or get us beyond appearance to any world or realm of reality lying beyond.”
– Greg L. Bahnsen, Always Ready, p. 181.

(There goes Romans 1:20…)

"God has the right to command and be obeyed. He has, therefore, the right to tell us what we must believe."
– John Frame, Apologetics to the Glory of God, p. 51.

(Say goodbye to man's right to his own mind!)

"The entire human race is dead in trespass and sin, falling short of god's glory (Eph. 2:1, 5; Rom. 3:23; 5:15); as a result, no one seeks after God or has understanding (Rom. 3:10-12)."
– Greg L. Bahnsen, Always Ready, p. 84.

(Let me get this straight. No one has understanding? Not even Greg Bahnsen?)

"Christians are often befuddled about 'reason', not knowing whether it is something to embrace or eschew."
– Greg L. Bahnsen, Always Ready, p. 113.

(Indeed, what did Jesus say about reason?)

Post a Comment


At 4/23/2005 3:21 PM, Blogger Aaron Kinney declaimed...

Last night at the Derek/Paul debate, Derek asked Paul about faith. Unfortunately, Derek didnt press the point home so to speak, but he did touch upon the "faith" dilemma.

Paul said he had knowledge of God and also had faith in God. I disagree in the strongest terms. According to the dictionary, faith is belief in things unevidenced. But knowledge is the verified or verifiable acceptance of a position; in other words, knowledge requires evidence.

Knowledge destroys faith. Faith exists in the absence of knowledge.

At 4/23/2005 4:03 PM, Blogger Paul Manata declaimed...

I was prepared for that, unfortualtely he didn't interact with my response (his modus operandi for the whole debate). I deny that definition of faith as well as the philosophical implications of it. My view isn't refuted by Websters. So, this was no fault of my argument but only Derek's failure to press the issue. I don;t have to address "problems" that aren;t raised.

And, Aaron, that's not a good definition of knowledge, anyway. name *one* epistemologist who holds that definition? It's also vauge. What is meant by: verified, etc.,?

Anyway, the debate will be up on the web soon. It was a blow to atheism.

At 4/23/2005 4:40 PM, Blogger Francois Tremblay declaimed...

By the way, Derek discussed the debate on the latest show - which coincidentally (really, I didn't plan this) is Looking at Presuppositionalism part 3. So check it out this evening.

At 4/23/2005 8:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous declaimed...

what time PST, Francois?

At 4/23/2005 9:03 PM, Blogger Francois Tremblay declaimed...

Well, it's up on the archives now, so you can go listen to it any time you want. And it will play on the station every day this week at 7PM and 11PM EST.

At 4/23/2005 9:25 PM, Anonymous Anonymous declaimed...

That was B.S. You'll hear the recording. Now I have no respect for that liar.

At 4/23/2005 9:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous declaimed...

I just got off the phone with Sansone and asked him why he lied to you guys. He said that he did and what's wrong with that?

At 4/23/2005 10:10 PM, Blogger Rebecca declaimed...

it's very easy to dismantle specific comments that people make, especially when they are taken out of their full context which may explain why those statements were made. on top of that, people are fallible creatures that are muddling through life as best they can. the only one who is perfect w/ all the correct answers and explanations is God and none of us can claim to be He who is almighty. it's easy to judge and misinterpret and it's easy to make a mistake in what one is trying to say. no one can prove or disprove what is going on in one man's heart or mind since we are not that person and are not taking their specific journey. faith is meant to be lived and most of us who are trying to live it fall short of explaining well what we believe. that doesn't make it any less true.

"faith is believing in something when common sense tells you not to."

At 4/23/2005 10:54 PM, Blogger Francois Tremblay declaimed...

Anonymous coward : what the hell are you going on about, what did Derek lie about ?

At 4/24/2005 12:52 AM, Anonymous Anonymous declaimed...

It me, Paulie.

Derek said he didn't have enough time??? But yet it was *HIM* who choose to not even use his full time allowed him! If he more to say, that he "couldn't get out," then why not use all the time he had? He said I didn't like the format either? Bull, I thought it was fine (I took that format as a *standard* format from collegate debates). He said I was "boring and lost the crowd?" Yet I had them rolling on more than one occasion (not Derek, though). I even had Derek laughing so hard in my opening that I thought he was going to start doing the "snort laugh." He said I "gave a straw man on morality" saying "we should let the prisoners go?" Actually, that was a question posed to Derek by SOMEONE ELSE (Sheesh! he can't even get straight who said what!). All I did was point out that he didn't answer the question and so he didn;t give us a reason to deny letting prisoners "go," on his worldview.

He said I said "logic points to God" and he "refuted that." Actaullay (and you can listen to the debate) I never said that once! Derek kept that I said it but you can hear the debate... I NEVER said it.

I talked to him on the phone and asked where he "got" me (since on the show he said he "got me"). I said that I answererd every one of his crosses, so where did he "get me?" At this point he said. "so what if I lied? Is lying wrong? I'm just a sinner by nature Paul." Yadda yadda. Actually, if you listen closely to the debate you can hear his voice crack a few times. I seriously thought he was going to start crying. On top of that he said "logic is fluff." LOL!



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