We promote rational individualism, and are opposed to those who assert incoherent supernatural claims.
Francois Tremblay Permalink
yeah, it sounds like you
(a statement so bold, it must be "anonymous.")"I know you are, but what am I?"
Franc should put one of himself like this:"I love having Paul Manata take me to school and teach me about transcendental arguments. But then I like to be a rebellious teeanager and continue to say that I use one. After enough people laugh at me will my daddy take me back? Please daddy, teach me to know what I'm talking about so I don't sound like a monkey."Franc "I decended from an ape-like anscestor" Tremblay is the man! Go Franc go!
Paul Manata made both an ad hominem attack and an unfalsifiable statement when he said that everyone is born with the innate knowledge of God, and those that insist otherwise are deceiving themselves. Funny that Paul mentioned fallacies in his opening statement. Maybe someone could take him to school on that, huh anonymous? ;)
I don't think I did. And, of course I was prepared to refute that as well. But, again, poor Derek never questioned it. Aaron, let's not act this way. You see, I have answers to all these "challenges." So, let's not analyze my debate and say I made certain errors because I'm not obligated to respond to "problems" that people don't bring up. I know people are going to analyze the debate and mention all the "errors" I committed. But I never made any errors, to see that I did one would have to examine and question my statements. Again, Derek failed to do this and so this does not count against me in the debate.Anyway, schoolboy with his falsification argument. The 1940's are calling and they want their arguments back, Aaron. Necessary truths are not falsifiable! Falsify the laws of logic, or tell me how they could be falsified? All attempts will assume those laws and so they are not falsifiable. Now, my argument is very similar to this. of course you don't like it but the point is that if my argument is correct it isn't falsifiable. To make mention to that is to beg the question and assume that my worldview is contingently true. Also, falsifiability runs afowl by the one by one myth, Aaron. As many philosophers have pointed out: "the arrow of modus tollens has an elusive target."
Paul Manata graciously mentioned:"But I never made any errors,"Wow...I always thought you were arrogant, but this definitely shows your true nature. Wow...Is this why you get so stuffy about Derek saying "I got him a few times, he got me a few times..." You can't even contemplate the possibility that you aren't always 100% right?"But I never made any errors..."isn't that a grammatical error? :)
Derek admitted he lied about that.No, I may have made some, but my point is that he never called me on any and all the ones that other people have pointed out were not errors and I have answers for the objections. So, I admit I may have made some that I'm unaware of and also I know I was unclear a couple of times, i.e., not explaining myself in the best way.My main point is that Derek should have questioned me on what he thought were errors. In a debate I am not obligated to respond to "problems" that are not brought up.
Personally, I'm just looking forward to checking out the debate when it's available. I think Paul and Derek should complimented for their willingness to stand up in front of a crowd and defend their respective positions. - Laz
thanks Laz. It was my first formal debate and public one. I may have not been the best speaker and Derek maybe sounded more polished (I don't know since I haven't listened to it yet). I still thank Sansone for flying out and for his graciousness towards me and the members of my church.
I agree with you on this point Paul. I am grateful to both of you for holding the debate and I definitely learned a few things out of it from both sides. I think the audience also learned a few things as well. I know you said that you wouldnt be doing another live debate for a long time Paul, but I think you should consider it. You did a fine job of presentation and speaking (even if I totally disagree with your worldview), and if you had any debates in the near future, I would love to attend them, and I think many other people would like to attend them as well, given the good turnout of this debate.
Since this is turning into a lovefest for Paul, I'll add my two cents:I enjoyed listening to your recent appearance on Gene's show (burden of proof) and thought you did a great job. You came across professional, and were actually less 'biased' sounding then Gene, which added to your credibility. Can't wait to hear this debate!
More like a "We can have mutual respect for others even if we have different beliefs" fest.Kill them with kindness my friend ;)
You don't love me Aaron??? =)
LOL Paul, I love humanity first and foremost, so I guess that includes you!I just dont like what I see as inhumane and immoral ideologies, such theism and afterlife-belief. But I only hate the sin, not the sinner LOL ;)
"I only hate the sin, not the sinner"That has never made any sense to me. How can you hate a belief ?
Sin isn't a "belief," Franc (though some beliefs can be *sinful*).And, rest assures y'all, God hates the sin a *and* the sinner.
That's so cool that God hates those He created to burn forever! I'm glad I get to be a vessel of wrath to demonstrate God's mercy to the elect. YES!!!I get to be a part of a large group of people...including all of those that didn't happen to live in the middle east during Jesus time to hear the 'good news,' those that grow up in continents that have nothing to do with Christianity historically, the muslims, jews, hindus, pagans and everyone else...I wonder what the 13 Calvinists, the 2 Baptists, and the 3 Presbyterians, that end up in heaven are going to do for eternity? Oh yeah...they get to sing. The same song. Over and over...and over...forever.
not reformed: "I wonder what the 13 Calvinists, the 2 Baptists, and the 3 Presbyterians, that end up in heaven are going to do for eternity? Oh yeah...they get to sing. The same song. Over and over...and over...forever."Sounds utterly boring!"Heaven for the climate, hell for the company" (somebody)
oooo, good refutation of Paul, Not Reformed. Not Reformed doesn't *like* this conception of God so he must not be real! Hey, not reformed, my little kid doesn't like vegetables, so they must not be real! You should grow up.
I hate evil ideologies and evil concepts that devalue my fellow man. I hate religion and theism. Its easy! Paul, your admission of God hating the sinner and the sin doesnt do well for your worldview. It makes God and Satan indistinguishable ;) Heaven sucks ass, thats for sure. Heaven is populated by Hitler, but Hell is populated by Ghandi. Anyway it doesnt matter. Heaven and Hell are essentialy the same place with a different interior designer. I would rather cease to exist than end up in either place. Paul, that reminds me: can an atheist appeal to God for non-existence upon death? Like, what goes up must come down kinda thing? If an atheist has no before life, cant he appeal to God to be granted no afterlife? Heaven and Hell would both be boring. No change or progress, only monotony and sameness over and over and over. It would be pointless beyond any meaning.
Aaron, satan *loves* sin. So, I don't know what you mean by indistinguishable??? I'd take a few months to study Christian theology before you go around "refuting" it.I don't know if Hitler or Ghandi are in heaven or hell, this is nothing but ignorant conjecture on your part. Heaven and hell have the same interior designer, God. And, it doesn't matterif you would rather cease to exist. Truth has nothing to do with your feelings.No, you can't appeal to God for that. He's not like a "kindly" ol' grandfather. He laughs at the attempts of the god-haters and knows you will bow at his feet one day, so kiss the Son lest he be angry and you perish in the way.Well, what you consider boring is a product of your worldview. All you're telling us here is that you don't have the Christian worldview. Good one, Capatin obvious.
Paul, you're so funny! I think we all can agree that vegetables are 'real.' However...your odd fantasies of talking plants, a liar God, presuppositionalist donkeys, and an eternity of singsong have not been proven 'real.' As soon as they are, I'd LOVE to sign up!But only God can grant me this wonderful fantasy...and he hasn't so far. Oh well...
what is proof? How does one "prove" things? I would need to know this in order to help you. If I don't know what you mean then how can I help you? Maybe you think when pink fairies whisper sweet nothins in your ear that's, "proof."Oh yeah, you're so funny. Your autonomy has not been proven, you mind's abiltiy to know truth has not been proven, your idea that you descended from an ape-like anscestor has not been proven, your theory of language has not been proven, your theory of meaning has not been proven, your metaphysical speculation has not been proven, your epistemology has not been proven... ad infinitum.
But Paul, you forgot to help me with my last point...John Calvin says I am completely unable to even accept your God unless He reaches out and takes me. So...what is a person with unbelief to do if God doesn't choose them?
Anonymous writes: "Not Reformed doesn't *like* this conception of God so he must not be real!"Actually, this reflects the essence of Christianity at its deepest roots - the primacy of consciousness: something is said to be the case due to someone's will. This is just another case of the pot calling the kettle black. The Christian who tells non-believers "you should grow up" while defending a worldview that is premised on the very error he accuses his opponents of committing, exemplifies the epitome of intellectual hypocrisy. Something isn't true simply because you wish it (unless you're "God" - right?).
Not Reformed asks: "So...what is a person with unbelief to do if God doesn't choose them?"On the Calvinist model, the non-believer needs no excuse: it's not up to him whether he believes or not since all the shots are called by the Calvinist god. By being a non-believer, you're just as much in line with "God's will" as the believer thinks he is (only as a non-believer, you're just more honest).
NR- so you choose to run again?If God doesn't choose to save you from your sins then you will pay for them, so?
Bahnsen Burner, your whole view assumes the primacy of cpnsciousness... you subjectivist!
What is "cpnsciousness"?
Young Paul Manata stated:" NR- so you choose to run again?If God doesn't choose to save you from your sins then you will pay for them, so?"How am I running? I'm asking you how I can know God. How can I be saved? If God won't call me, what can I do? I can't understand the deep spiritual mysterious without God regenerating my sinful mind, so what can I do? Seriously, Paul. What can I do?
Paul said:"thanks Laz. It was my first formal debate and public one. I may have not been the best speaker and Derek maybe sounded more polished (I don't know since I haven't listened to it yet). I still thank Sansone for flying out and for his graciousness towards me and the members of my church."I really dread the day that I enter into my first oral debate. I always get extremely nervous when addressing a crowd (even on radio). It takes a little while for me to calm down, and I end up packing too much into my sentences so I end up being short of breath. I get more of a work out giving lectures than when I'm at the gym =P.Do you anticipate entering into oral debates again in the future, or was this more of a one time experience?- Laz
NR- I don't know if you are chosen and neither do you. Your assumptions forget that God ordains means to bring His people in from the swine trough. So, you can listen to me, read the Bible, go sit under the preaching of the word, etc. You can get on your knees and ask the Father to forgive you for your rebellion and to save you from moral and intellectual foolishness.Laz,I didn't want to debate Sansone. I told him time and time again that I wouldn't want people spending their Friday listening to guys who did not have at least Masters, preferably Ph.Ds. He continued to harrass me and told me he would eebate me in front of a Burger King lol! Anyway, I finally caved in and told him that I would do it. More people showed up than I had anticipated and many told me that they wouldn't have known that I hadn't been a debater or a public speaker in college. I have always wanted to do this (growing up alot of people told me I should become a lawyer, I'm Italian, you know =) ) and I do planm on doing it on a regular basis in the future, after I get my Masters and hopefully a Ph.D in Phi. In the meantime I don't think I'll be doing this anytime soon unless it is a great opportunity and I feel it is worth it. It would only be from a challenge, I will not initiate any debate challenges until I have what I feel are the required letters behind your name to warrant people's free time.
Paul to NR: "So, you can listen to me, read the Bible, go sit under the preaching of the word, etc. You can get on your knees and ask the Father to forgive you for your rebellion and to save you from moral and intellectual foolishness."But Paul, each of these actions would be volitional on NR's part, not Jesus'. And doesn't Calvinism hold that one cannot be saved by works? So in effect, NR could go through all these motions and still not be saved. And the same with you: You could go through the rest of your life thinking you're in line with your god's will, and yet according to your own worldview, it could be the case that you've been rejected and didn't even know it.I'm glad these aren't my problems!
BB - EXACTLY!!!I think its rather interesting that EVERY poor soul who says the right words and 'thinks' he's one of the Chosen will be embraced by the flock...and yet how could any of them really know they are saved? Paul's God hasn't called me, and yet Paul argues and argues and argues....obviously not to help ME, but to reinforce his own faltering confidence in this cartoon God.
NR: "how could any of them really know they are saved?"This is a question which their own epistemology (if one could even call it that) is completely unable to answer. In the end, since the presupper wants to "think God's thoughts after Him," he comes to a point where he cannot distinguish between his own thoughts and those he attributes to his god, thus merging the two into one (that's the real 'trinity' - a real mind merging with an imaginary one to give birth to a "new mind" that is "in Christ" - a vague relationship if there ever was one). Since the believer cannot point to anything objective that can substantiate any of his worldview confessions, "knowing" for him is a purely internal matter - subjectively consulting his feelings and wishes to determine his standing with "God." He doesn't want non-believers to give this issue any attention, that's why his apologetic scheme is almost 100% focused on attacking the non-believer's worldview - a worldview which the believer himself must borrow every time he deals with the real world (such as when he pursues values that satisfy his biological needs - from tying his shoes in the morning, to pulling money from an ATM, to virtually anything else he does in life).NR: "Paul's God hasn't called me, and yet Paul argues and argues and argues...."Yes, all performatively contradicting his Calvinist dogma. But notice also that, to the extent that he even puts together an actual argument, it turns out to be an argument from desperation - a series of baseless assertions backed up by implied arguments from ignorance and incredulity, and sandwiched by questions that his own worldview couldn't hope to answer. It's quite an amazing spectacle.NR: "obviously not to help ME, but to reinforce his own faltering confidence in this cartoon God."Right - in the end the non-believer merely needs to ask the presuppositionalist: whom are you trying to convince? Their own theorists admit that one cannot come to "saving knowledge of Christ" through argument. Wasn't it Schaeffer who said "God is not found at the end of an argument"? Seems to me I remember reading Van Til citing this quote... That's playing it safe, since they can never put together an argument that sticks.
BB: "But Paul, each of these actions would be volitional on NR's part, not Jesus'."Paul: And? Actually, to be precise, both would cause it. Dawson, have you not studied those who you "refute?" BB: And doesn't Calvinism hold that one cannot be saved by works? Paul: Yes, where di my post mention that doing those things is what saves you?? Dawson, are you misrepresenting opponents again? Hey, now I know who this blog entry was about!BB: So in effect, NR could go through all these motions and still not be saved.Paul: All but one. If he truly asked Jesus to save him, Jesus would. Anyway, what's your point?BB: You could go through the rest of your life thinking you're in line with your god's will, and yet according to your own worldview, it could be the case that you've been rejected and didn't even know it.Paul: First, let's note that this has nothing to do with how one could be saved, the point of NRs questions. So, you're off topic just to "refute" people. How sad. Second, according to my worldview? What does my worldview teach us? Now Dawson's gonna look like an unstudied hack, again:Chapter XVIIIOf Assurance of Grace and SalvationI. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation (which hope of theirs shall perish): yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed. II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God, which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.III. This infallible assurance does not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties, before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which wounds the conscience and grieves the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never so utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair. JOB 8:13 So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite's hope shall perish: 14 Whose hope shall be cut off, and whose trust shall be a spider's web. MIC 3:11 The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the Lord, and say, Is not the Lord among us? none evil can come upon us. DEU 29:19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst. JOH 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. MAT 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 1JO 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1JO 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. ROM 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. HEB 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end. 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil. HEB 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us. 2PE 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 1JO 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 2CO 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. ROM 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. EPH 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 2CO 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. 1JO 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. ISA 1:10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. MAR 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. (see PSA 88; PSA 77) 1CO 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1JO 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. HEB 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. EPH 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 2PE 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. ROM 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. EPH 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. PSA 4:6 There be many that say, Who will shew us any good? Lord, lift thou up the light of thy countenance upon us. 7 Thou hast put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their corn and their wine increased. 119:32 I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart. 1JO 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. ROM 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? TIT 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. 12 Teaching us, that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly, in this present world. 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 2CO 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. ROM 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. PSA 130:4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. 1JO 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. SON 5:2 I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night. 3 I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them? 6 I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer. PSA 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. EPH 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice. PSA 77:1 I cried unto God with my voice, even unto God with my voice; and he gave ear unto me. 2 In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted. 3 I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah. 4 Thou holdest mine eyes waking: I am so troubled that I cannot speak. 5 I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. 6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search. 7 Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more? 8 Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for evermore? 9 Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah. 10 And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the most High. MAT 26:69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. 70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. 71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. 72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. PSA 31:22 For I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto thee. (PSA 88 throughout) ISA 50:10 Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God. 1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. LUK 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. JOB 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. PSA 73:15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children. PSA 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. ISA 50:10 Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God. MIC 7:7 Therefore I will look unto the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me. 8 Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the Lord shall be a light unto me. 9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness. JER 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. ISA 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. 10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee. PSA 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? So, the Bible says that we may *KNOW* that we have eternal life. So, hit the books and hide out for a couple months so you don't go around telling people what "their worldview teaches" while not knowing what "their worldview" teaches.Again, I must point out that your posts have done nothing to rebut my answer to NR. He asked what he should do. I told him. Even if we had epistemological problems (we don't) that would not change the fact that there are means God has appointed to save men.
NR said: "Paul's God hasn't called me, and yet Paul argues and argues and argues....obviously not to help ME, but to reinforce his own faltering confidence in this cartoon God."How do you know he hasn't predestined you unto salvation, NR? You don't. So, ignorant conjecture on your part.I argue for a few reasons: I don't know if God has called you. God uses means to bring His people home from the swine trough. If you haven't been called you can still have your mouth shut.
Thanks for your response Paul.I was curious...once you get your advanced degrees, are you going to start giving credit for the sources you post, or will you continue to 'cut and paste' your way through life?And...I can 'truly' ask Jesus to save me all day, but they're only words. I can't BELIEVE unless I am called, correct?
NR- In a scholarly format I'll put the proper footnotes in. How did I take credit for that? You're an idiot.No, if you "truly" ask Jesus to save you then you will be. This is what the Bible teaches. So, go hide in your room and study up on people before you "refute" them. Hey, when you get educated are you actually going to study your opponant or will you continue to go through life "refuting" people and looking like a donkey? hey, what do you know? Donkeys do talk.
Paul -"Donkey's do talk!"heh heh...I admit, I did chuckle at that one. :) So...its OK to give credit for other people's work when you're being 'scholarly,' but otherwise you can keep mum. Got it. :)So..I'm not called. So why should I give any credence to what you say? If my mind does not have a spiritual lens to 'account for' these things...what good are they?I'll go hunting around for a talking plant...it worked for Moses.
NR- Everyone knows I'm reformed. I put chapter and verse. I assumed most people knew that was from the WCF. Big deal. Hey, I've heard your arguments against Calvinism before, care to cite your sources?"So..I'm not called."Again, this is your unproven assumption."So why should I give any credence to what you say?"You don't have to do anything."If my mind does not have a spiritual lens to 'account for' these things...what good are they?"You still can know the truth without submitting to it, my brother is case in point. Also, the bible says that the demons "believe" but yet shudder. So, your error is to assume that faith is nothing more than rational ascent.As I said, please study up so I don't have to correct you. I don't have that much time.Go look for the talking plant. Guess what? "If you believe not them [the Scriptures]" neither will you believe a miracle. You can just say it was a weird even, like the singing bush on "The Three Amigo's."
Paul said:"Hey, I've heard your arguments against Calvinism before, care to cite your sources?"I promise that if I cut and paste entire passages from someone else's work, I'll give sources. Its what honest people do. I can grant that in your haste you assumed everyone knew it was from the WCF...however...this isn't the first time or place you've been 'caught' posting large chunks of someone's else's work. A pattern.If demons exist, they 'believe' because they have direct evidence of God's existence, and supposedly God's adversary as well. Humans don't have this, or we wouldn't even be discussing it.
BB: "But Paul, each of these actions would be volitional on NR's part, not Jesus'."Paul: "And? Actually, to be precise, both would cause it." I'm not even sure how this makes sense, even in your crippled worldview. But it does confirm one of my earlier points that the believer eventually comes to see himself just as infallible as he claims his god is (since in the end he sees himself merging his mind with an imaginary mind that's said to be infallible, omniscient and authoritative and thereby is unable to distinguish between the two). Paul: "Dawson, have you not studied those who you 'refute'?" I've done quite a bit of study, Paul, and I'm always willing to learn more. But I don't think it's the amount of study I've done that bothers you. Rather, you don't like my verdicts is all. Not believing what you claim is not the same thing as not understanding what you claim. When I see a contradiction, I merely point it out. I realize that bugs the snot out of you, but that's the way it is.BB: "And doesn't Calvinism hold that one cannot be saved by works?" Paul: "Yes, where di my post mention that doing those things is what saves you??" NR asked "How can I be saved?" and you wrote in response to him, thus implying that you were answering his question when you cited your "to do" list.Paul: "Dawson, are you misrepresenting opponents again? Hey, now I know who this blog entry was about!"I don't think I've misrepresented anything, Paul. I've simply interacted with your statements is all. Are you saying that your own statements don't represent your view? Even your quotation of the WCF confirmed what I had stated (see below).BB: "So in effect, NR could go through all these motions and still not be saved."Paul: "All but one. If he truly asked Jesus to save him, Jesus would." Ah, so it's contingent on NR's asking? That's not what I understand Calvinism to hold. Also, how does one determine whether or not he has "truly asked" something? Can you step us through this process, oh omniscient son?Paul: "Anyway, what's your point?"None that you don't make so ironically clear with your own choices and actions, Paul.BB: "You could go through the rest of your life thinking you're in line with your god's will, and yet according to your own worldview, it could be the case that you've been rejected and didn't even know it."Paul: "First, let's note that this has nothing to do with how one could be saved, the point of NRs questions. So, you're off topic just to 'refute' people. How sad." Actually, it's the heart of the topic of epistemology: How do you know? Questioning the means by which one knows he is "saved" is the next logical step after the Christian identifies the supposed means by which one is saved. And I see you still haven't answered it, even after quoting the WCF at length. For it speaks of the believer being "enabled by the Spirit" to have knowledge whose evidential basis is - as I pointed out in my own comment above - "inward" (as I put it, "knowing" for the believer "is a purely internal matter - subjectively consulting his feelings and wishes to determine his standing with 'God'"). So in spite of your insinuation that I haven't studied the object of my criticism, all that your quote accomplishes is to confirm precisely what I had earlier stated. So they gain you no ground. One could claim to know anything by appealing to an invisible magic being that speaks to you inside your mind, and that's ultimately the best you can produce in defense of your worldview (meanwhile you borrow from mine to get anything accomplished in life). But you can still call me names if you think that will compensate for your inability to give an objective answer. It really doesn't bother me.Paul: "Second, according to my worldview? What does my worldview teach us?" Your worldview essentially teaches us that the universe is analogous to a cartoon. That's what it teaches, Paul.
Paul wrote:"Laz,I didn't want to debate Sansone. I told him time and time again that I wouldn't want people spending their Friday listening to guys who did not have at least Masters, preferably Ph.Ds."Good point, yes."He continued to harrass me and told me he would debate me in front of a Burger King lol! Anyway, I finally caved in and told him that I would do it. More people showed up than I had anticipated and many told me that they wouldn't have known that I hadn't been a debater or a public speaker in college. I have always wanted to do this (growing up alot of people told me I should become a lawyer, I'm Italian, you know =) )"lol - yeah, I got the same thing as a kid, too. It would happen especially when I would do something dumb and, of course, get into a bundle of trouble, where I would have to make a case for my innocence. The adults would always come up with the same side remark that, "you know, you really need to be a lawyer when you grow up. I'll make certain to hire you as my defense attorney". My aspirations are a few hundred thousand dollars less per year as a future philosopher, but, I think I can deal heh."and I do plan on doing it on a regular basis in the future, after I get my Masters and hopefully a Ph.D in Phi. In the meantime I don't think I'll be doing this anytime soon unless it is a great opportunity and I feel it is worth it. It would only be from a challenge, I will not initiate any debate challenges until I have what I feel are the required letters behind your name to warrant people's free time."I think this is the best approach and the one that I'll adopt for myself also. If you do end up setting up another sometime in the future, hit me up with a message or something if you're up for it, I wouldn't mind taking a seat in the audience.- Laz
no problem, Laz. And you do the same.
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